Hey Oren-If elites should stop using personal anecdotes when asked to relay their feelings about the American experience, then lets also agree that the common folk should stop using personal anecdotes when they talk about what it means to be a "real American."
Right, because the sensitive feelings of the elites are what’s most important here. And their 6,000 sq ft residences and their 6-7 figure jobs aren’t enough - no, we really need to focus on the fact that the cleaning lady and cashier might not consider them real Americans.
Since the 2016 election, there have been more thought pieces, documentaries, and interviews with the "real Americans that have been left behind." I can think of at least 2 documentaries on the opioid crisis alone that got top billing on Netflix and HBO. The suggestion that elites haven't been listening to the stories of the "volk" is absurd.
If American Compass wants to find out why so many people read at a 6th grade level by asking those people to share their personal experiences, go ahead. I guarantee their conclusion will be "because the elites let them down."
Are you serious? We have a huge media landscape. Countless pieces and documentaries have been done on the subject. What matters is whether the policy landscape has changed to not just favor the white collar workforce. For a decade now people like you have responded by blaming them, telling them they should take responsibility and get college educated. But this isn’t 1984. It is quite clear by now about half of Americans won’t be college educated and it’s about time we provide them alternative pathways to success instead of subsidizing your college loans and selling their jobs overseas in the name of free trade.
The answer isn’t they don’t understand economics so too bad. I don’t expect them to. I expect you to look beyond your self-interest and help provide solutions for them rather than claim it’s all their fault somehow.
Oren may want to channel ET and phone home:). Home being his "new" right that controls all the levers of the federal government.
Who can argue with the points Oren makes in this piece? They seem obvious. Apparently, Oren's "new" right does, given their revealed preferences. The signature economic policy achievement of the "new" right is the BBB. We all know that story, it's yet another transfer of wealth from workin stiffs to the plutocrats (plus the record deficit spending). Meanwhile Don, the movement's leader, focuses far more on lining the pockets of his family and fellow billionaires than articulating policies aimed at the good folks Oren professes concern for. If you haven't yet done so, take some time to dive deep into Don's crypto corruption, it's mind blowing. Especially the links between the loot he's pocketing and our national interest, eg taco tariffing in exchange for Vietnamese golf courses, or pardons of Chinese national criminals in exchange for deposits into Don's meme coin. One might dub this the "new" right's trickle down economics?
One thing we're safe from though, is the leader of the "new" right living "the life of the mind". Watch Don's speech to our generals, or read his daily bleats on truth social, and ponder that aging, addled, angry mind at 82...
Great review here, Oren, but what did YOU say while you were on that stage? I hope you quoted statistics from your surveys, but I also hope you told those self-satisfied celebrities what a bunch of hypocrites they were.
The premise of this essay is we can have education or we can have a working class, but we can't have both. Is that really the choice? Populists in the 1880s and 1890s were farmers who believed they should also understand classical political theory, and they did. What Appelbaum was saying is that factory workers should recognize the American political system and participate in it at the same or similar level to people who go to college. What's objectionable about that?
I dislike both The Atlantic and Bouie, is it really persuasive to use anecdotes about these guys to discredit the idea of using anecdote? I would be interested in a discussion of Bouie's writing or Appelbaum's book The Economists Hour. But implicit in the well-structured framework here is that we need better more sympathetic elites to rule the rubes more nicely. Not buying it.
Thank you for the article. I always like to hear what you have to say because you make sense. At the same time, I wonder if there is an even larger story. I totally agree with you that not everyone is made for college. I wasn’t at the conference, so I don’t know if that’s the point of Bouie and Applebaum. However, I totally agree with you that we should have a path to make a living as a blue-collar worker. But I also think the middle class is being squeezed not because people can’t be electricians. It’s because factory workers are losing their jobs. As you know, factory jobs are also becoming more demanding. Belt-line workers are replaced by technicians that often require certifications or some form of more specialized training. What I’m trying to say is this: As much as we want to pave a way for blue-collar work, the larger world is shifting to new shapes. It’s not either-or.
Some afterthoughts. To better illustrate my point, college degree is also being replaced! From talking to young people, a college degree does not land you jobs these days. What employers look for, is whether you can solve their problems. I forgot the term, but group learning is a thing. It’s like finding answers from a Google forum. And, employers recognize that. In other words, institutional education is not necessarily the pathway anymore. I don’t know what the answer is. But I couldn’t help feeling that we are still thinking inside the box that belongs to the 20th century.
A great commentary, Oren. My daughter went to a public technical high school (what used to be called a "trade school") and the kids I saw there came out of school with marketable skills, ready to work in careers they liked, and ready to be paid to do the kinds of things that liberal arts, college educated people like me never learned to do (plumbing, electrical, etc) - and every time I pay a plumber's bill I am reminded of that fact!.
You caused me to consider, thank you. I was looking at things only from my perspective.
Most would hardly call me a success, not like the folks you mention certainly. A couple years ago my wife said we'll never be poor again, my kids did choose college, and we paid. High net worth is a long ways from where I was.
But what of others? I'm intelligent, when I lived in Somerville MA some climbing buddy college guys thought me amusing and had me tested. What of someone with an IQ of 85, or lower. There are 50 million Americans that struggle to make sense of things most of us find complicated enough, they would struggle to become journeyman electricians or plumbers. We all need a secure job and a uncomplicated existence where we can work, pay the rent or mortgage, see a doctor, and retire. Yes work can be hard, name a s**t job and I've done it.
For many people the struggle is extremely difficult. Incomes are unbelievably small, and employment is precarious. A rent increase, an injury, a check engine light, can tip things over. We can't all be brain surgeons, even with tutors, and trade school is school, reading and basic math would be good. Those simple mindless jobs are desirable, those are good jobs if they are secure and can cover expenses.
Oren: you obviously haven’t read much American fiction, especially some novels published in the 60’s/70’s and 80’s. In the Regan years, remember morning in America, several novelists were writing about blue collar white guys losing their jobs—- offshoring/golbizalitiom/ automation etc. This caused social disfunction/ alcohol abuse and domestic violence. Remember now, it’s morning in America!!!! So here you had these intellectuals, elites as you say, writing about blue collar Americans!
Some people learn from doing and some learn from someone who knows more by listening to them or reading what they have written. All art, as elite and cultural as it is considered, is learned by doing with only the underlying skills initiated by teaching. All skills can be taught but are matured and perfected by doing. Anyone can talk and try to spread the knowledge they have gained, interpret the events of their life or the events of a nation or of History. Unless there is some concrete "doing" behind their words, there is no measure of excelence except opinion, whether that opinion is popular or educated and each can be wrong ( or not useful) as proved by change of opinion over time and the emergence of flash in the pan fashionable opinions that regularly seem to emerge and die out. The advantage of college is that it can and should acquaint a person with how opinions have changed over time and make it easier to reject or reinterpret current received opinion if it does not seem useful or consistent with experience. Some opinions seem wise over many ages and cultures and finding what you consider the wisdom to guide your life is easier the more of them you are exposed to. But first you need to find out what you are good at doing.
Inadvertently, this story also shows the decline in assimilation. We go from Yoni's grandpa, a mailman, name unknown, to Paul (born 1951), to children Yoni and Binyamin (born late 70s). I'll bet you there were no kids named Yoni or Binyamin in Paul's Stuyvesant HS class in late '60s. Sort of like how Reggie and Leroy became DeShondre and LaQuarius.
I think the only part I would consider revising is to replace son with child or young person etc. I am not trying to sound too woke here but articulate it from my personal experience. One of my neighbors have daughter that became a welder and works on construction. She makes damn good money and appears to be quite satisfied in her career choice.
How about simply getting to a 100% high school graduation rate with basic proficiency in numeracy and literacy?
Hey Oren-If elites should stop using personal anecdotes when asked to relay their feelings about the American experience, then lets also agree that the common folk should stop using personal anecdotes when they talk about what it means to be a "real American."
Right, because the sensitive feelings of the elites are what’s most important here. And their 6,000 sq ft residences and their 6-7 figure jobs aren’t enough - no, we really need to focus on the fact that the cleaning lady and cashier might not consider them real Americans.
Since the 2016 election, there have been more thought pieces, documentaries, and interviews with the "real Americans that have been left behind." I can think of at least 2 documentaries on the opioid crisis alone that got top billing on Netflix and HBO. The suggestion that elites haven't been listening to the stories of the "volk" is absurd.
If American Compass wants to find out why so many people read at a 6th grade level by asking those people to share their personal experiences, go ahead. I guarantee their conclusion will be "because the elites let them down."
Are you serious? We have a huge media landscape. Countless pieces and documentaries have been done on the subject. What matters is whether the policy landscape has changed to not just favor the white collar workforce. For a decade now people like you have responded by blaming them, telling them they should take responsibility and get college educated. But this isn’t 1984. It is quite clear by now about half of Americans won’t be college educated and it’s about time we provide them alternative pathways to success instead of subsidizing your college loans and selling their jobs overseas in the name of free trade.
The answer isn’t they don’t understand economics so too bad. I don’t expect them to. I expect you to look beyond your self-interest and help provide solutions for them rather than claim it’s all their fault somehow.
Excellent article to paraphrase "Everyone Talks their Book".
Oren may want to channel ET and phone home:). Home being his "new" right that controls all the levers of the federal government.
Who can argue with the points Oren makes in this piece? They seem obvious. Apparently, Oren's "new" right does, given their revealed preferences. The signature economic policy achievement of the "new" right is the BBB. We all know that story, it's yet another transfer of wealth from workin stiffs to the plutocrats (plus the record deficit spending). Meanwhile Don, the movement's leader, focuses far more on lining the pockets of his family and fellow billionaires than articulating policies aimed at the good folks Oren professes concern for. If you haven't yet done so, take some time to dive deep into Don's crypto corruption, it's mind blowing. Especially the links between the loot he's pocketing and our national interest, eg taco tariffing in exchange for Vietnamese golf courses, or pardons of Chinese national criminals in exchange for deposits into Don's meme coin. One might dub this the "new" right's trickle down economics?
One thing we're safe from though, is the leader of the "new" right living "the life of the mind". Watch Don's speech to our generals, or read his daily bleats on truth social, and ponder that aging, addled, angry mind at 82...
Good luck America.
Great review here, Oren, but what did YOU say while you were on that stage? I hope you quoted statistics from your surveys, but I also hope you told those self-satisfied celebrities what a bunch of hypocrites they were.
I appreciate your pieces. Thanks for pushing the dialogue
The premise of this essay is we can have education or we can have a working class, but we can't have both. Is that really the choice? Populists in the 1880s and 1890s were farmers who believed they should also understand classical political theory, and they did. What Appelbaum was saying is that factory workers should recognize the American political system and participate in it at the same or similar level to people who go to college. What's objectionable about that?
I dislike both The Atlantic and Bouie, is it really persuasive to use anecdotes about these guys to discredit the idea of using anecdote? I would be interested in a discussion of Bouie's writing or Appelbaum's book The Economists Hour. But implicit in the well-structured framework here is that we need better more sympathetic elites to rule the rubes more nicely. Not buying it.
Thank you for the article. I always like to hear what you have to say because you make sense. At the same time, I wonder if there is an even larger story. I totally agree with you that not everyone is made for college. I wasn’t at the conference, so I don’t know if that’s the point of Bouie and Applebaum. However, I totally agree with you that we should have a path to make a living as a blue-collar worker. But I also think the middle class is being squeezed not because people can’t be electricians. It’s because factory workers are losing their jobs. As you know, factory jobs are also becoming more demanding. Belt-line workers are replaced by technicians that often require certifications or some form of more specialized training. What I’m trying to say is this: As much as we want to pave a way for blue-collar work, the larger world is shifting to new shapes. It’s not either-or.
Some afterthoughts. To better illustrate my point, college degree is also being replaced! From talking to young people, a college degree does not land you jobs these days. What employers look for, is whether you can solve their problems. I forgot the term, but group learning is a thing. It’s like finding answers from a Google forum. And, employers recognize that. In other words, institutional education is not necessarily the pathway anymore. I don’t know what the answer is. But I couldn’t help feeling that we are still thinking inside the box that belongs to the 20th century.
A great commentary, Oren. My daughter went to a public technical high school (what used to be called a "trade school") and the kids I saw there came out of school with marketable skills, ready to work in careers they liked, and ready to be paid to do the kinds of things that liberal arts, college educated people like me never learned to do (plumbing, electrical, etc) - and every time I pay a plumber's bill I am reminded of that fact!.
You caused me to consider, thank you. I was looking at things only from my perspective.
Most would hardly call me a success, not like the folks you mention certainly. A couple years ago my wife said we'll never be poor again, my kids did choose college, and we paid. High net worth is a long ways from where I was.
But what of others? I'm intelligent, when I lived in Somerville MA some climbing buddy college guys thought me amusing and had me tested. What of someone with an IQ of 85, or lower. There are 50 million Americans that struggle to make sense of things most of us find complicated enough, they would struggle to become journeyman electricians or plumbers. We all need a secure job and a uncomplicated existence where we can work, pay the rent or mortgage, see a doctor, and retire. Yes work can be hard, name a s**t job and I've done it.
For many people the struggle is extremely difficult. Incomes are unbelievably small, and employment is precarious. A rent increase, an injury, a check engine light, can tip things over. We can't all be brain surgeons, even with tutors, and trade school is school, reading and basic math would be good. Those simple mindless jobs are desirable, those are good jobs if they are secure and can cover expenses.
Oren: you obviously haven’t read much American fiction, especially some novels published in the 60’s/70’s and 80’s. In the Regan years, remember morning in America, several novelists were writing about blue collar white guys losing their jobs—- offshoring/golbizalitiom/ automation etc. This caused social disfunction/ alcohol abuse and domestic violence. Remember now, it’s morning in America!!!! So here you had these intellectuals, elites as you say, writing about blue collar Americans!
What were the titles of some of these books? I would love to read them
Some people learn from doing and some learn from someone who knows more by listening to them or reading what they have written. All art, as elite and cultural as it is considered, is learned by doing with only the underlying skills initiated by teaching. All skills can be taught but are matured and perfected by doing. Anyone can talk and try to spread the knowledge they have gained, interpret the events of their life or the events of a nation or of History. Unless there is some concrete "doing" behind their words, there is no measure of excelence except opinion, whether that opinion is popular or educated and each can be wrong ( or not useful) as proved by change of opinion over time and the emergence of flash in the pan fashionable opinions that regularly seem to emerge and die out. The advantage of college is that it can and should acquaint a person with how opinions have changed over time and make it easier to reject or reinterpret current received opinion if it does not seem useful or consistent with experience. Some opinions seem wise over many ages and cultures and finding what you consider the wisdom to guide your life is easier the more of them you are exposed to. But first you need to find out what you are good at doing.
I see nothing wrong with anecdotes, as long as one has the humility to acknowledge that other people's anecdotes count, too
Inadvertently, this story also shows the decline in assimilation. We go from Yoni's grandpa, a mailman, name unknown, to Paul (born 1951), to children Yoni and Binyamin (born late 70s). I'll bet you there were no kids named Yoni or Binyamin in Paul's Stuyvesant HS class in late '60s. Sort of like how Reggie and Leroy became DeShondre and LaQuarius.
We live in lake woebegone. All children are above average. This view was once the subject of ridicule.
I think the only part I would consider revising is to replace son with child or young person etc. I am not trying to sound too woke here but articulate it from my personal experience. One of my neighbors have daughter that became a welder and works on construction. She makes damn good money and appears to be quite satisfied in her career choice.