You are employing logic, Steve, and that is typically frowned upon when there is wealth and influence to be gained by means of elision, deflection and obscurantism.
The article makes reasonable points, but one essential element in the "letter carrier" anecdote, is the a priori assumption that category "letter carrier" represents a deficiency.
I'm reminded of the "anyone can become president" narrative so heavily propagated when I was young. Most interesting to me, were the replies when I responded with "but everyone cannot become president."
The "Holy Grail" of the "university for everyone" cohort, is sinecure, but acknowledging that is tabu.
Having observed the generational decline in literacy and numeracy at first hand, one thing has become apparent; the aptitude and trait expression of a sizable plurality of those competing for a limited number of remunerative occupations, renders them unsuitable as candidates. The occupations are "blue collar," but the rate of change requires adaptation that leaves those deficient in reading comprehension, unable to consistently produce consistently competent outcomes.
Yes, basic proficiency is not just a logical, objective standard, it is an essential sorting process. What has been lost, is self-determination by means of societal pressures and structures that place altitude in hierarchical ascendance above aptitude and attitude.
I'd be happy with the old fashioned "Sixth Grade education" that produced readers and writer and arithmetically minded inventors and industrialists and other builders and leaders of the modern Twentieth Century.
Hey Oren-If elites should stop using personal anecdotes when asked to relay their feelings about the American experience, then lets also agree that the common folk should stop using personal anecdotes when they talk about what it means to be a "real American."
Right, because the sensitive feelings of the elites are what’s most important here. And their 6,000 sq ft residences and their 6-7 figure jobs aren’t enough - no, we really need to focus on the fact that the cleaning lady and cashier might not consider them real Americans.
Since the 2016 election, there have been more thought pieces, documentaries, and interviews with the "real Americans that have been left behind." I can think of at least 2 documentaries on the opioid crisis alone that got top billing on Netflix and HBO. The suggestion that elites haven't been listening to the stories of the "volk" is absurd.
If American Compass wants to find out why so many people read at a 6th grade level by asking those people to share their personal experiences, go ahead. I guarantee their conclusion will be "because the elites let them down."
Are you serious? We have a huge media landscape. Countless pieces and documentaries have been done on the subject. What matters is whether the policy landscape has changed to not just favor the white collar workforce. For a decade now people like you have responded by blaming them, telling them they should take responsibility and get college educated. But this isn’t 1984. It is quite clear by now about half of Americans won’t be college educated and it’s about time we provide them alternative pathways to success instead of subsidizing your college loans and selling their jobs overseas in the name of free trade.
The answer isn’t they don’t understand economics so too bad. I don’t expect them to. I expect you to look beyond your self-interest and help provide solutions for them rather than claim it’s all their fault somehow.
Great piece. But you’re still talking around the elephant in the room: hereditarianism/genetic determinism versus blank slatism.
The “everybody should go to college and live the life of the mind” crowd has made a factual error that underlies their poor policy preferences. They believe, wrongly, that everyone is born a blank slate to be molded into the nearly perfect human by society and its institutions. Until they are disabused of this false understanding of what a human is (Pinker’s Blank Slate should have done the trick already, but ideologues never let facts get in their way), they will continue to insist upon harmful policies.
If the slate isn't blank then the self-made wo/man anecdote addiction goes coldest of turkeys. That much withdrawal overdraws the little boxes(made of ticky-tack 🎶)-checking accounts & is much to be avoided.
"If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" & if the blank kills millions but preserves my favorite story about me well then you must certainly acquit. And ... "coffee is for closers."
Oren may want to channel ET and phone home:). Home being his "new" right that controls all the levers of the federal government.
Who can argue with the points Oren makes in this piece? They seem obvious. Apparently, Oren's "new" right does, given their revealed preferences. The signature economic policy achievement of the "new" right is the BBB. We all know that story, it's yet another transfer of wealth from workin stiffs to the plutocrats (plus the record deficit spending). Meanwhile Don, the movement's leader, focuses far more on lining the pockets of his family and fellow billionaires than articulating policies aimed at the good folks Oren professes concern for. If you haven't yet done so, take some time to dive deep into Don's crypto corruption, it's mind blowing. Especially the links between the loot he's pocketing and our national interest, eg taco tariffing in exchange for Vietnamese golf courses, or pardons of Chinese national criminals in exchange for deposits into Don's meme coin. One might dub this the "new" right's trickle down economics?
One thing we're safe from though, is the leader of the "new" right living "the life of the mind". Watch Don's speech to our generals, or read his daily bleats on truth social, and ponder that aging, addled, angry mind at 82...
The premise of this essay is we can have education or we can have a working class, but we can't have both. Is that really the choice? Populists in the 1880s and 1890s were farmers who believed they should also understand classical political theory, and they did. What Appelbaum was saying is that factory workers should recognize the American political system and participate in it at the same or similar level to people who go to college. What's objectionable about that?
I dislike both The Atlantic and Bouie, is it really persuasive to use anecdotes about these guys to discredit the idea of using anecdote? I would be interested in a discussion of Bouie's writing or Appelbaum's book The Economists Hour. But implicit in the well-structured framework here is that we need better more sympathetic elites to rule the rubes more nicely. Not buying it.
Your claim that the author makes this dichotomy is absent in my reading. I get out of it that we need diverse forms of education to suit individuals varying needs, to maximize their usefulnrss to society. We need doers and thinkers. Everyone trying to compete as thinkers is laughable, as clearly most aren't suited to this. We have wound up with many voices crying out to be noticed, many of whom would probably benefit from some quiet time landscaping, or operating equipment.
Agreed. He's just talking about a system where the policy makers all come from the same track and create a system that steers all kids that way instead of system that let kids/families choose excellent technical or pre-college education in high school.
Interestingly he didn't mention the AI wave that is already decimating the college grads opportunities now that we have machines that can do much of the "life of the mind jobs" or make them much more efficient. At this moment we ABSOLUTELY do not need 40% of our kids pursuing 4 year college degrees. The fact that half of college grads don't use their degree shows that even before AI we were overproducing them.
While factories can be automated, many of the hands on trades and small scale manufacturing that a good trade school pathway would prepare kids for is safe from AI replacement.
A great commentary, Oren. My daughter went to a public technical high school (what used to be called a "trade school") and the kids I saw there came out of school with marketable skills, ready to work in careers they liked, and ready to be paid to do the kinds of things that liberal arts, college educated people like me never learned to do (plumbing, electrical, etc) - and every time I pay a plumber's bill I am reminded of that fact!.
Great review here, Oren, but what did YOU say while you were on that stage? I hope you quoted statistics from your surveys, but I also hope you told those self-satisfied celebrities what a bunch of hypocrites they were.
Some people learn from doing and some learn from someone who knows more by listening to them or reading what they have written. All art, as elite and cultural as it is considered, is learned by doing with only the underlying skills initiated by teaching. All skills can be taught but are matured and perfected by doing. Anyone can talk and try to spread the knowledge they have gained, interpret the events of their life or the events of a nation or of History. Unless there is some concrete "doing" behind their words, there is no measure of excelence except opinion, whether that opinion is popular or educated and each can be wrong ( or not useful) as proved by change of opinion over time and the emergence of flash in the pan fashionable opinions that regularly seem to emerge and die out. The advantage of college is that it can and should acquaint a person with how opinions have changed over time and make it easier to reject or reinterpret current received opinion if it does not seem useful or consistent with experience. Some opinions seem wise over many ages and cultures and finding what you consider the wisdom to guide your life is easier the more of them you are exposed to. But first you need to find out what you are good at doing.
Given the increasing specialization required for expertise in most fields, even those who take the academic or professional elite tracks aren’t necessarily living any more a “life of the mind” than a local tradesperson. The multi-disciplinary knowledge combined with critical thinking which result in real wisdom isn’t possible to infuse into any narrow slice of education. Experts are ignorant of every other field than their specialty.
There are plenty of potential autodidacts within the students in lower achievement bands if we can improve literacy rates and encourage a culture which actually values wisdom, and there are plenty of elite experts who won’t touch a book or educate themselves outside of their field after college.
Both in the article as well as in the comments, you can see the problem. It's the very simplistic belief that college jobs are thinking jobs while blue collar jobs aren't. I remember years ago reading of an interesting study done that tracked blue collar kids adopted by white collar parents and the reverse.
Kids born to white collar parents raised by blue collar parents usually didn't go to college but found jobs that required constantly learning new skills. Think electricians that wire up Hospitals. While the reverse were more likely to go to college but get a job that varied little over the years. Think corporate accountant that works in payroll for his whole life.
But Cass is right, too many people can't think outside their narrow bubbles.
Inadvertently, this story also shows the decline in assimilation. We go from Yoni's grandpa, a mailman, name unknown, to Paul (born 1951), to children Yoni and Binyamin (born late 70s). I'll bet you there were no kids named Yoni or Binyamin in Paul's Stuyvesant HS class in late '60s. Sort of like how Reggie and Leroy became DeShondre and LaQuarius.
AI will significantly reduce the opportunities for the children of the elite to continue their families upward trajectory, while doing the same for those of blue collar status. I'm beginning to think the entire educational system needs to be restructured to account for this destabilizing effect.
Maybe more emphasis on functioning in a digital world where reality is fast disappearing concept. How I don't know, but to those who read on a 6th grade level you can add the legions who can't discern the truth from a fabricated narrative. Maybe a degree in sceptism is warranted.
How about simply getting to a 100% high school graduation rate with basic proficiency in numeracy and literacy?
You are employing logic, Steve, and that is typically frowned upon when there is wealth and influence to be gained by means of elision, deflection and obscurantism.
The article makes reasonable points, but one essential element in the "letter carrier" anecdote, is the a priori assumption that category "letter carrier" represents a deficiency.
I'm reminded of the "anyone can become president" narrative so heavily propagated when I was young. Most interesting to me, were the replies when I responded with "but everyone cannot become president."
The "Holy Grail" of the "university for everyone" cohort, is sinecure, but acknowledging that is tabu.
Having observed the generational decline in literacy and numeracy at first hand, one thing has become apparent; the aptitude and trait expression of a sizable plurality of those competing for a limited number of remunerative occupations, renders them unsuitable as candidates. The occupations are "blue collar," but the rate of change requires adaptation that leaves those deficient in reading comprehension, unable to consistently produce consistently competent outcomes.
Yes, basic proficiency is not just a logical, objective standard, it is an essential sorting process. What has been lost, is self-determination by means of societal pressures and structures that place altitude in hierarchical ascendance above aptitude and attitude.
I'd be happy with the old fashioned "Sixth Grade education" that produced readers and writer and arithmetically minded inventors and industrialists and other builders and leaders of the modern Twentieth Century.
Hey Oren-If elites should stop using personal anecdotes when asked to relay their feelings about the American experience, then lets also agree that the common folk should stop using personal anecdotes when they talk about what it means to be a "real American."
Right, because the sensitive feelings of the elites are what’s most important here. And their 6,000 sq ft residences and their 6-7 figure jobs aren’t enough - no, we really need to focus on the fact that the cleaning lady and cashier might not consider them real Americans.
Since the 2016 election, there have been more thought pieces, documentaries, and interviews with the "real Americans that have been left behind." I can think of at least 2 documentaries on the opioid crisis alone that got top billing on Netflix and HBO. The suggestion that elites haven't been listening to the stories of the "volk" is absurd.
If American Compass wants to find out why so many people read at a 6th grade level by asking those people to share their personal experiences, go ahead. I guarantee their conclusion will be "because the elites let them down."
Are you serious? We have a huge media landscape. Countless pieces and documentaries have been done on the subject. What matters is whether the policy landscape has changed to not just favor the white collar workforce. For a decade now people like you have responded by blaming them, telling them they should take responsibility and get college educated. But this isn’t 1984. It is quite clear by now about half of Americans won’t be college educated and it’s about time we provide them alternative pathways to success instead of subsidizing your college loans and selling their jobs overseas in the name of free trade.
The answer isn’t they don’t understand economics so too bad. I don’t expect them to. I expect you to look beyond your self-interest and help provide solutions for them rather than claim it’s all their fault somehow.
Great piece. But you’re still talking around the elephant in the room: hereditarianism/genetic determinism versus blank slatism.
The “everybody should go to college and live the life of the mind” crowd has made a factual error that underlies their poor policy preferences. They believe, wrongly, that everyone is born a blank slate to be molded into the nearly perfect human by society and its institutions. Until they are disabused of this false understanding of what a human is (Pinker’s Blank Slate should have done the trick already, but ideologues never let facts get in their way), they will continue to insist upon harmful policies.
If the slate isn't blank then the self-made wo/man anecdote addiction goes coldest of turkeys. That much withdrawal overdraws the little boxes(made of ticky-tack 🎶)-checking accounts & is much to be avoided.
"If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit" & if the blank kills millions but preserves my favorite story about me well then you must certainly acquit. And ... "coffee is for closers."
Houston we have a ... song:
I got holes in both of my shoes
Well, I'm a walkin' case of the blues
Saw a dollar yesterday
But the wind blew it away
Aye, an ill, elite (illete?) wind. Sing it, Dino.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rt1VicF5-0&list=RD4Rt1VicF5-0&start_radio=1
Excellent article to paraphrase "Everyone Talks their Book".
Oren may want to channel ET and phone home:). Home being his "new" right that controls all the levers of the federal government.
Who can argue with the points Oren makes in this piece? They seem obvious. Apparently, Oren's "new" right does, given their revealed preferences. The signature economic policy achievement of the "new" right is the BBB. We all know that story, it's yet another transfer of wealth from workin stiffs to the plutocrats (plus the record deficit spending). Meanwhile Don, the movement's leader, focuses far more on lining the pockets of his family and fellow billionaires than articulating policies aimed at the good folks Oren professes concern for. If you haven't yet done so, take some time to dive deep into Don's crypto corruption, it's mind blowing. Especially the links between the loot he's pocketing and our national interest, eg taco tariffing in exchange for Vietnamese golf courses, or pardons of Chinese national criminals in exchange for deposits into Don's meme coin. One might dub this the "new" right's trickle down economics?
One thing we're safe from though, is the leader of the "new" right living "the life of the mind". Watch Don's speech to our generals, or read his daily bleats on truth social, and ponder that aging, addled, angry mind at 82...
Good luck America.
The premise of this essay is we can have education or we can have a working class, but we can't have both. Is that really the choice? Populists in the 1880s and 1890s were farmers who believed they should also understand classical political theory, and they did. What Appelbaum was saying is that factory workers should recognize the American political system and participate in it at the same or similar level to people who go to college. What's objectionable about that?
I dislike both The Atlantic and Bouie, is it really persuasive to use anecdotes about these guys to discredit the idea of using anecdote? I would be interested in a discussion of Bouie's writing or Appelbaum's book The Economists Hour. But implicit in the well-structured framework here is that we need better more sympathetic elites to rule the rubes more nicely. Not buying it.
Your claim that the author makes this dichotomy is absent in my reading. I get out of it that we need diverse forms of education to suit individuals varying needs, to maximize their usefulnrss to society. We need doers and thinkers. Everyone trying to compete as thinkers is laughable, as clearly most aren't suited to this. We have wound up with many voices crying out to be noticed, many of whom would probably benefit from some quiet time landscaping, or operating equipment.
Agreed. He's just talking about a system where the policy makers all come from the same track and create a system that steers all kids that way instead of system that let kids/families choose excellent technical or pre-college education in high school.
Interestingly he didn't mention the AI wave that is already decimating the college grads opportunities now that we have machines that can do much of the "life of the mind jobs" or make them much more efficient. At this moment we ABSOLUTELY do not need 40% of our kids pursuing 4 year college degrees. The fact that half of college grads don't use their degree shows that even before AI we were overproducing them.
While factories can be automated, many of the hands on trades and small scale manufacturing that a good trade school pathway would prepare kids for is safe from AI replacement.
A great commentary, Oren. My daughter went to a public technical high school (what used to be called a "trade school") and the kids I saw there came out of school with marketable skills, ready to work in careers they liked, and ready to be paid to do the kinds of things that liberal arts, college educated people like me never learned to do (plumbing, electrical, etc) - and every time I pay a plumber's bill I am reminded of that fact!.
Great review here, Oren, but what did YOU say while you were on that stage? I hope you quoted statistics from your surveys, but I also hope you told those self-satisfied celebrities what a bunch of hypocrites they were.
I appreciate your pieces. Thanks for pushing the dialogue
We live in lake woebegone. All children are above average. This view was once the subject of ridicule.
Some people learn from doing and some learn from someone who knows more by listening to them or reading what they have written. All art, as elite and cultural as it is considered, is learned by doing with only the underlying skills initiated by teaching. All skills can be taught but are matured and perfected by doing. Anyone can talk and try to spread the knowledge they have gained, interpret the events of their life or the events of a nation or of History. Unless there is some concrete "doing" behind their words, there is no measure of excelence except opinion, whether that opinion is popular or educated and each can be wrong ( or not useful) as proved by change of opinion over time and the emergence of flash in the pan fashionable opinions that regularly seem to emerge and die out. The advantage of college is that it can and should acquaint a person with how opinions have changed over time and make it easier to reject or reinterpret current received opinion if it does not seem useful or consistent with experience. Some opinions seem wise over many ages and cultures and finding what you consider the wisdom to guide your life is easier the more of them you are exposed to. But first you need to find out what you are good at doing.
Given the increasing specialization required for expertise in most fields, even those who take the academic or professional elite tracks aren’t necessarily living any more a “life of the mind” than a local tradesperson. The multi-disciplinary knowledge combined with critical thinking which result in real wisdom isn’t possible to infuse into any narrow slice of education. Experts are ignorant of every other field than their specialty.
There are plenty of potential autodidacts within the students in lower achievement bands if we can improve literacy rates and encourage a culture which actually values wisdom, and there are plenty of elite experts who won’t touch a book or educate themselves outside of their field after college.
Both in the article as well as in the comments, you can see the problem. It's the very simplistic belief that college jobs are thinking jobs while blue collar jobs aren't. I remember years ago reading of an interesting study done that tracked blue collar kids adopted by white collar parents and the reverse.
Kids born to white collar parents raised by blue collar parents usually didn't go to college but found jobs that required constantly learning new skills. Think electricians that wire up Hospitals. While the reverse were more likely to go to college but get a job that varied little over the years. Think corporate accountant that works in payroll for his whole life.
But Cass is right, too many people can't think outside their narrow bubbles.
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. "
Inadvertently, this story also shows the decline in assimilation. We go from Yoni's grandpa, a mailman, name unknown, to Paul (born 1951), to children Yoni and Binyamin (born late 70s). I'll bet you there were no kids named Yoni or Binyamin in Paul's Stuyvesant HS class in late '60s. Sort of like how Reggie and Leroy became DeShondre and LaQuarius.
AI will significantly reduce the opportunities for the children of the elite to continue their families upward trajectory, while doing the same for those of blue collar status. I'm beginning to think the entire educational system needs to be restructured to account for this destabilizing effect.
Maybe more emphasis on functioning in a digital world where reality is fast disappearing concept. How I don't know, but to those who read on a 6th grade level you can add the legions who can't discern the truth from a fabricated narrative. Maybe a degree in sceptism is warranted.
Dick Minnis
removingthecataract.substack.com