That is not a well written question. The outcome for the apprenticeship is stated, where it is not for the college. The college scholarship should have included a well paying job outcome or you should remove the well paying job outcome from the apprenticeship. My point is that we all want well paying jobs for our children. Neither are a guarantee of a well paying job. Framing the question so that apprenticeships get a well paying job will bias towards that answer. How you ask the question is important. I think the gap between who prefer college to apprenticeship is closing and maybe has closed. That is good. However, this is flawed data to support that, in my opinion.
A kid who is going to do poorly at college will more than likely not make it as a master plumber or electrician. There is more to it than simply putting in the hours. And to be successful one needs to run one's own business, which is even much harder.
Most union workers are 8 hour days, it can be strenuous, gets old at 60. Most employers get rid of older workers, and employees usually don't make much either.
We need to pay labor a lot more, or parents will still have kids that can't make it on their own.
I know people that took vocational training just after high school, to be carpenters and what not, they now deliver medical supplies or work assembly for light industrial. Carpenters are either illegal immigrants, or highly skilled redneck types with big trucks and big dogs and the rednecks do custom where you have to speak English and read prints.
My high school tore out its shop classes to make room for more music practice rooms and performance spaces. Might not have been the best strategy in retrospect.
But equally importantly, the standards to which college holds students have declined dramatically, particularly in the area of communication. Forming a readable paragraph or even in some cases a sentence is often a bridge too far. How did these kids get out of high school in the first place? Math ability is often even worse where there is no ability to reasonably estimate what a result should be. So really what we have is kids who have marked time for four years versus kids who have worked alongside the skilled and have been held to performance standards.
As we all know the democrats and republicans gave the working-class middle away to pay off countries to side with us during the cold war. Neither party cared. Plus, big business loved the idea, cheap labor, no labor laws, and no environmental rules and laws in the way. (Think Apple)
So, here we are.
The university = The "New Religion" (religion of nihilism)
I can understand the drive toward apprenticeships and the skills that go with them, but I do lament that we have lost an understanding of what the liberal arts were supposed to be. There is a true good in the formation that can be given through a genuine liberal arts program, but nowadays, all of the state colleges and most of the private ones have redefined liberal arts into a kind of indoctrination camp for cultural Marxism. We will lose so much as a culture via this privation.
Concur Sarah spot on. Nihilism is what is taught. Be empty easier to indoctrinate when you make them empty, no values, no principles, no ethics. What do you want to put in them? Check out the technology companies they are putting it in their very successfully.
The options are poorly formed, as college could also lead to a valuable credential and a well-paying job. The response might be that it is not a guaranteed outcome of college, which is true (you could study the wrong thing, you could fail out, etc, etc), but in countries where they have wide spread apprenticeships culture, the credentials and jobs are not the guaranteed outcome of the apprectinsihip either, you still need to earn it, and people fail out.
I worked in a high school for over 30 years and we always had a big percentage of our students actively pursuing hands on skills to prepare them for manufacturing jobs, so don’t tar everyone with the same brush
That is not a well written question. The outcome for the apprenticeship is stated, where it is not for the college. The college scholarship should have included a well paying job outcome or you should remove the well paying job outcome from the apprenticeship. My point is that we all want well paying jobs for our children. Neither are a guarantee of a well paying job. Framing the question so that apprenticeships get a well paying job will bias towards that answer. How you ask the question is important. I think the gap between who prefer college to apprenticeship is closing and maybe has closed. That is good. However, this is flawed data to support that, in my opinion.
agreed.
1) 3-year apprenticeship program after high school that would lead to a valuable credential and a well-paying job
2) Full-tuition scholarship to any college or university that your child was admitted that would lead to a valuable credential and a well-paying job
The framing is quite important
“3-year apprenticeship program after high school that would lead to a valuable credential and a well-paying job”
It’s called the U.S. Military 😊🇺🇸
If they can get in. The military won't take obese or low IQ. 16% of people aren't smart enough to get in.
And no asinine wars for the next 20 years as George P Bush’s and Liz Cheney’s political careers are over!
One problem with the assumptions.
A kid who is going to do poorly at college will more than likely not make it as a master plumber or electrician. There is more to it than simply putting in the hours. And to be successful one needs to run one's own business, which is even much harder.
Most union workers are 8 hour days, it can be strenuous, gets old at 60. Most employers get rid of older workers, and employees usually don't make much either.
We need to pay labor a lot more, or parents will still have kids that can't make it on their own.
I know people that took vocational training just after high school, to be carpenters and what not, they now deliver medical supplies or work assembly for light industrial. Carpenters are either illegal immigrants, or highly skilled redneck types with big trucks and big dogs and the rednecks do custom where you have to speak English and read prints.
Spot on Ban. So true, concur.
My high school tore out its shop classes to make room for more music practice rooms and performance spaces. Might not have been the best strategy in retrospect.
But equally importantly, the standards to which college holds students have declined dramatically, particularly in the area of communication. Forming a readable paragraph or even in some cases a sentence is often a bridge too far. How did these kids get out of high school in the first place? Math ability is often even worse where there is no ability to reasonably estimate what a result should be. So really what we have is kids who have marked time for four years versus kids who have worked alongside the skilled and have been held to performance standards.
Who is surprised by the different outcomes?
As we all know the democrats and republicans gave the working-class middle away to pay off countries to side with us during the cold war. Neither party cared. Plus, big business loved the idea, cheap labor, no labor laws, and no environmental rules and laws in the way. (Think Apple)
So, here we are.
The university = The "New Religion" (religion of nihilism)
This seems appropriate right about now:
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave us kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.
from Pink Floyd Another Brick in the Wall
None of these writers and politicians are sending THEIR children to trade school. They're ALL going to college.
Does that number go up if unions are more protected?
The real question is “Do you feel your child’s high school prepared your child for either an apprenticeship or college?”
I can understand the drive toward apprenticeships and the skills that go with them, but I do lament that we have lost an understanding of what the liberal arts were supposed to be. There is a true good in the formation that can be given through a genuine liberal arts program, but nowadays, all of the state colleges and most of the private ones have redefined liberal arts into a kind of indoctrination camp for cultural Marxism. We will lose so much as a culture via this privation.
Concur Sarah spot on. Nihilism is what is taught. Be empty easier to indoctrinate when you make them empty, no values, no principles, no ethics. What do you want to put in them? Check out the technology companies they are putting it in their very successfully.
Every merit is just a lesson in cultural Marxism? Wow, college must be crazy
Nihilism Ted
The options are poorly formed, as college could also lead to a valuable credential and a well-paying job. The response might be that it is not a guaranteed outcome of college, which is true (you could study the wrong thing, you could fail out, etc, etc), but in countries where they have wide spread apprenticeships culture, the credentials and jobs are not the guaranteed outcome of the apprectinsihip either, you still need to earn it, and people fail out.
I worked in a high school for over 30 years and we always had a big percentage of our students actively pursuing hands on skills to prepare them for manufacturing jobs, so don’t tar everyone with the same brush