If bombing them back to the Stone Age were justified, as perhaps it was in ww2, then I could get behind it.
But Iran didn’t start this war. Genocide over a war you started whose outcome you caused seems pretty ridiculous.
I was fine with what isreal did in Gaza because it was provoked and dealing with an active and unforgivable threat. But it seems clear that this most recent round of escalation is at their behest and their interest and not ours.
Iran's proxies, Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis very much started this war. If the Japanese had gotten their puppets in Manchuria to bomb pearl harbor, funded them, trained them and armed them, would you have had America Ignore Japan's role in that.
It is very much in our interest to stop a terrorist supporting regime from continuing to stock pile ballistic missiles and drone, while continuing to inch closer and closer to getting nuclear weapons. Have you forgotten the Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, Jordon and Oman are also our allies and some had been attacked by Iran even before the October 7th attacks on Israel.
I'm sorry, but on this issues, Oren Cass and the staff at Common Place are falling into the managed decline attitude. The belief that it's better to let problems fester and get worse rather then confront them today.
Hamas did Oct 7th. Which was barbaric but I remind you *did not affect America*.
What impact Iran had on Oct 7th I don't know. For its crimes on Oct 7th Israel basically eradicated Hamas, leveled Gaza, and decapitated most of Irans proxies.
And then for a long while nothing happened. And we could have kept going on having nothing happen.
Instead, we *started* a war with a country of 70 million people far from Israel with no plan of what victory looked like.
Imagine if after the Korean War we bombed Moscow. That's what this is like.
"Imagine if after the Korean War we bombed Moscow. That's what this is like." It would be if we bombed China. Russia wasn't really involved in the Korean war. Makes me wonder just how much you understand the first cold war. Which is important to understanding the new "tepid" war we're getting into now.
Iran is the funds, training and weapons supplier to Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. And it did involve America. Israel is our ally. Then there was the Houthi attacks on shipping. Which by the way, if Israel really feels it's facing a existential threat, they will start chucking nukes at wherever they see a threat.
So this really gets back to a basic question. Are you "America first", or an "Isolationist". Understand I'm not stating that in judgement. How you answer, as well as how the majority answers that question will determine our policies.
If you're "America first" then we need to deal with Iran for a number of reasons and as such, now is about the best time to do that. Russia is preoccupied, Iran's proxies have been severely damaged, and China isn't and wasn't really going to come to their aid.
If you're in the "Isolationist" camp, then we need to close all our overseas bases and let the chips fall where they may. In the middle east that will mean a fast arms race as everybody will now need nuclear weapons. Then there will be the territorial battles. Might as well write of the Suez canal since even if it's not taken out, the return of pirates and threats of attacks in the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, as well as the Gulf of Oman would make shipping in the region too risky for most trade between Europe and Asia.
By the way, things weren't really resolved by the twelve day war. Israel made a bad mistake in bombing the negotiations with Hamas in Qatar. It's not a good look for us to have one of our allies bombing another one of our allies, without our permission or advance knowledge. So we made Israel stop it's fight prematurely. Or in effect made Netanyahu come to heel in a very public way. But there were many things still unresolved. Like getting Hezbollah disarmed in southern Lebanon. As well as taking out more of Iran's abilities to make and stockpile missiles.
The Soviet Union (USSR) provided crucial covert support to North Korea and China during the Korean War (1950–1953), supplying weapons, training, and strategic planning while avoiding direct official combat with the U.S. Soviet pilots flew MiG-15s against UN forces, and over 10,000 Soviet personnel served in specialized roles.
Key Aspects of Soviet Support:
Initial Planning & Supply: The USSR supplied hundreds of tanks, heavy artillery, and aircraft, largely equipping the North Korean army before the invasion.
Air Support ("MiG Alley"): Soviet pilots, wearing Chinese/Korean uniforms, operated within a designated area known as "MiG Alley," specifically engaging American bombers.
Personnel & Advising: An estimated 26,000 to 70,000 Soviet citizens (including military advisors, pilots, and engineers) served in Korea, providing technical intelligence and training.
Diplomatic Support: The USSR maintained a heavy hand in tactical planning, though Stalin aimed to keep the involvement masked to avoid a direct global war with the United States.
Why the USSR Stayed "Invisible"
To avoid provoking a direct, full-scale confrontation with the United States, Stalin required Soviet pilots to avoid communication in Russian and prohibited them from flying over enemy-held territory, where they might be captured.
Everything you say is true, but also wrong. Yes Russia did supply North Korea with lots of weapons and training. Most of which we handily defeated. Unfortunately we very arrogantly ignored China's warning to stay away from their border. We could have negotiated to have the South Koreans with a few American advisors finish the fight in the north, but we didn't.
After that mistake, it wasn't Russian fighter jets but the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops that came streaming across the border, that became the problem. Even then, the Chinese lost more casualties due to hypothermia then they did to combat. So again, not Soviet military advisors but poorly armed and equipped Chinese solders.
Which is also why our relations with North Korea ever since, has been more about what and how the Chinese wanted, rather then the Russians.
Except, Don has preached the opposite for a decade, as has MAGA more generally. But I admire your willingness to learn and grow, and to join Don in advancing the argument of a Bush era neocon even in the face of fierce opposition from so many current conservative luminaries. It’s so quaint you want to be peacemaker for the region.
Don already assured us that his 12 day war resulted in Iran’s nuclear facilities being “completely and totally obliterated”, so I’m not clear on your concern over nukes, I’m sure he was telling the truth. Aren’t you?
Oren is miss firing here as badly as Trump did with his ‘destroying a civilization’ comment. For Trump, it’s a psychological trait that is impossible to change no matter how dire a warning that Oren or anyone else throws at him. We don’t have much choice, either Biden or Trump, pick your medicine and deal with the rest. Labeling a loose cannon comment as disastrous for the nation is beneath the dignity and professionalism of a scholar of Oren’s stature. I can count easily many bigger disasters that face our country: government fraud in California and the Democratic Party in general, socialism in NYC and among younger generations in general, etc. etc. How many national disasters can we scream at everyday folks before they would turn off their antenna and go about their business as usual? We don’t need one more crying baby or never trumper in Oren Cass.
If you paid attention to Trump's specific threats which were bridges and power plants which are hardly the end of civilization. In other words what Clinton did in Serbia. Serbia is functional again. The Left and panicons got all twitterpated about the summary which was typical Trump hyperbole. At no time did he say anything about nukes. And it was the Chinese who twisted Iranian arms about negotiations. Yeah, they were protecting their investments which proved they are serious people. Unlike the Europeans.
No Richard. He said “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again”. That isn’t who America is. It isn’t who any civilized society is. Don is just a craven politician, not a deity. Escape the grip.
Obviously, you didn't read what I wrote but I am used to that. Oren does attract leftists which I normally approve of since I think populist fusion is the only way to hold the place together. But when he strays into foreign policy, he attracts people afflicted with TDS.
No leftist here, I'm a lifelong conservative, still, but a former Republican since Don appeared. But, you need new material Richard, MAGA religiously resorts to the lame claim of TDS when all rational arguments have failed. The funny thing is, merely repeating Don's actual statements, or recounting his actions, makes one sound deranged. Sadly, it's real. Speaking of deranged, I often wonder if his ever faithful flock actually reads his daily bleats, or listens to his full public statements?
It's so telling, and predictable, that Don's followers have dutifully morphed into neocons as they embrace MAGA's Middle East war, eschewing another of their supposed core beliefs. It shows again that the movement isn't about issues. I just love that:).
If Don ever settles on a rationale for MAGA's war, I hope it's one that you can easily adopt as your own.
Sometimes we do. Read Don's daily bleats in their entirety. They're far more deranged and vile than what you'll find on these pages. Ironically, JD has uttered the most scathing assessments of Don, far more strident than what you'll read here. I agree with JD, even though he drips with TDS.
I am do, but short of resignation, this won't happen.
Democrats are already making impeachment noises for next year. They'll do it, unless they have the votes for conviction. If the GOP were to turn on Trump, the Dems would suddenly fall silent since they can't give Vance 22 months of Trump's term and still let him run for 2 more on his own.
Trump turns 80 in July, polymarket gives 17% that he won't complete this year. There are many possibilities that don't include disharmony amongst the Rs.
25A never happen. Vance wouldn't go along unless a stroke or similar. I don't pay much attention to the right so maybe I'm missing something. Neocons got their war, why would they be pissed. CT types can Epstein forever. Not sure why any Rs would want Trump gone. I thought 25A buzz was from the left. I follow left crazies even less.
Good for Oren for poking his head outta the foxhole again. I welcome him to the cause. I suspect his main motivation remains an attempt to help his bud JD flee from Don and assume yet another political ideology. I'll still take it.
Oren joins other paragons of the "new" right in denouncing Don. Tucker, Candace, Nick, MTG, Alex, Megyn...some even calling for pursuing the 25th amendment. I welcome them to the cause as well.
I had thought fomenting an insurrection coupled with the big lie was evidence enough of Don's unfitness for office, but, again, I'll still take it.
Let's celebrate the green shoots on this spring Friday. Elites on the right have taken a few baby steps towards stating the obvious. Maybe there's hope for my former party after all?
Beautifully said. There must be sane intelligent people in the Republican party who are finally realising that cowardly genuflecting to a derranged bully is not a path to long term success in fixing the liberal establishment's errors.
Really enjoy Oren, but wish he would defer from using popular culture references, like "the long shadow of Chris Webber’s ill-advised timeout". Per an AI query to estimate the % of adults who would understand this reference, I got:
Estimate (rough, assumption-based):
Assumptions: awareness concentrated among U.S. adults who follow college basketball, aged ~35–65 (were old enough in 1993 to remember it), plus sports fans who learned about it later.
Reasonable guess: ~15–25% of American adults would recognize the reference.
As a share of the overall news-media-consuming population (people who follow news/consume media): roughly the same, ~15–25%.
Uncertainty: ±10 percentage points depending on age skew, sports interest, and cultural memory.
Writers should not encumber the majority of their readers for cute one liners that they don't get. I'm not saying it isn't cute, but stuff like this really disrupts a smooth reading of an otherwise good article. I am not reading Oren for cute. Thanks for listening.
If bombing them back to the Stone Age were justified, as perhaps it was in ww2, then I could get behind it.
But Iran didn’t start this war. Genocide over a war you started whose outcome you caused seems pretty ridiculous.
I was fine with what isreal did in Gaza because it was provoked and dealing with an active and unforgivable threat. But it seems clear that this most recent round of escalation is at their behest and their interest and not ours.
Iran's proxies, Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis very much started this war. If the Japanese had gotten their puppets in Manchuria to bomb pearl harbor, funded them, trained them and armed them, would you have had America Ignore Japan's role in that.
It is very much in our interest to stop a terrorist supporting regime from continuing to stock pile ballistic missiles and drone, while continuing to inch closer and closer to getting nuclear weapons. Have you forgotten the Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, Jordon and Oman are also our allies and some had been attacked by Iran even before the October 7th attacks on Israel.
I'm sorry, but on this issues, Oren Cass and the staff at Common Place are falling into the managed decline attitude. The belief that it's better to let problems fester and get worse rather then confront them today.
Hamas did Oct 7th. Which was barbaric but I remind you *did not affect America*.
What impact Iran had on Oct 7th I don't know. For its crimes on Oct 7th Israel basically eradicated Hamas, leveled Gaza, and decapitated most of Irans proxies.
And then for a long while nothing happened. And we could have kept going on having nothing happen.
Instead, we *started* a war with a country of 70 million people far from Israel with no plan of what victory looked like.
Imagine if after the Korean War we bombed Moscow. That's what this is like.
"Imagine if after the Korean War we bombed Moscow. That's what this is like." It would be if we bombed China. Russia wasn't really involved in the Korean war. Makes me wonder just how much you understand the first cold war. Which is important to understanding the new "tepid" war we're getting into now.
Iran is the funds, training and weapons supplier to Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. And it did involve America. Israel is our ally. Then there was the Houthi attacks on shipping. Which by the way, if Israel really feels it's facing a existential threat, they will start chucking nukes at wherever they see a threat.
So this really gets back to a basic question. Are you "America first", or an "Isolationist". Understand I'm not stating that in judgement. How you answer, as well as how the majority answers that question will determine our policies.
If you're "America first" then we need to deal with Iran for a number of reasons and as such, now is about the best time to do that. Russia is preoccupied, Iran's proxies have been severely damaged, and China isn't and wasn't really going to come to their aid.
If you're in the "Isolationist" camp, then we need to close all our overseas bases and let the chips fall where they may. In the middle east that will mean a fast arms race as everybody will now need nuclear weapons. Then there will be the territorial battles. Might as well write of the Suez canal since even if it's not taken out, the return of pirates and threats of attacks in the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, as well as the Gulf of Oman would make shipping in the region too risky for most trade between Europe and Asia.
By the way, things weren't really resolved by the twelve day war. Israel made a bad mistake in bombing the negotiations with Hamas in Qatar. It's not a good look for us to have one of our allies bombing another one of our allies, without our permission or advance knowledge. So we made Israel stop it's fight prematurely. Or in effect made Netanyahu come to heel in a very public way. But there were many things still unresolved. Like getting Hezbollah disarmed in southern Lebanon. As well as taking out more of Iran's abilities to make and stockpile missiles.
The Soviet Union (USSR) provided crucial covert support to North Korea and China during the Korean War (1950–1953), supplying weapons, training, and strategic planning while avoiding direct official combat with the U.S. Soviet pilots flew MiG-15s against UN forces, and over 10,000 Soviet personnel served in specialized roles.
Key Aspects of Soviet Support:
Initial Planning & Supply: The USSR supplied hundreds of tanks, heavy artillery, and aircraft, largely equipping the North Korean army before the invasion.
Air Support ("MiG Alley"): Soviet pilots, wearing Chinese/Korean uniforms, operated within a designated area known as "MiG Alley," specifically engaging American bombers.
Personnel & Advising: An estimated 26,000 to 70,000 Soviet citizens (including military advisors, pilots, and engineers) served in Korea, providing technical intelligence and training.
Diplomatic Support: The USSR maintained a heavy hand in tactical planning, though Stalin aimed to keep the involvement masked to avoid a direct global war with the United States.
Why the USSR Stayed "Invisible"
To avoid provoking a direct, full-scale confrontation with the United States, Stalin required Soviet pilots to avoid communication in Russian and prohibited them from flying over enemy-held territory, where they might be captured.
Everything you say is true, but also wrong. Yes Russia did supply North Korea with lots of weapons and training. Most of which we handily defeated. Unfortunately we very arrogantly ignored China's warning to stay away from their border. We could have negotiated to have the South Koreans with a few American advisors finish the fight in the north, but we didn't.
After that mistake, it wasn't Russian fighter jets but the hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops that came streaming across the border, that became the problem. Even then, the Chinese lost more casualties due to hypothermia then they did to combat. So again, not Soviet military advisors but poorly armed and equipped Chinese solders.
Which is also why our relations with North Korea ever since, has been more about what and how the Chinese wanted, rather then the Russians.
You said that the soviets didn’t provide support to North Korea. This was clearly and obviously false.
If Soviet assistance to North Korea didn’t imply we needed to bomb Moscow, then Iranian assistance to Hamas doesn’t imply we need to bomb Tehran.
Wow, you’re a neocon!
Except, Don has preached the opposite for a decade, as has MAGA more generally. But I admire your willingness to learn and grow, and to join Don in advancing the argument of a Bush era neocon even in the face of fierce opposition from so many current conservative luminaries. It’s so quaint you want to be peacemaker for the region.
Don already assured us that his 12 day war resulted in Iran’s nuclear facilities being “completely and totally obliterated”, so I’m not clear on your concern over nukes, I’m sure he was telling the truth. Aren’t you?
Oren is miss firing here as badly as Trump did with his ‘destroying a civilization’ comment. For Trump, it’s a psychological trait that is impossible to change no matter how dire a warning that Oren or anyone else throws at him. We don’t have much choice, either Biden or Trump, pick your medicine and deal with the rest. Labeling a loose cannon comment as disastrous for the nation is beneath the dignity and professionalism of a scholar of Oren’s stature. I can count easily many bigger disasters that face our country: government fraud in California and the Democratic Party in general, socialism in NYC and among younger generations in general, etc. etc. How many national disasters can we scream at everyday folks before they would turn off their antenna and go about their business as usual? We don’t need one more crying baby or never trumper in Oren Cass.
If you paid attention to Trump's specific threats which were bridges and power plants which are hardly the end of civilization. In other words what Clinton did in Serbia. Serbia is functional again. The Left and panicons got all twitterpated about the summary which was typical Trump hyperbole. At no time did he say anything about nukes. And it was the Chinese who twisted Iranian arms about negotiations. Yeah, they were protecting their investments which proved they are serious people. Unlike the Europeans.
No Richard. He said “A whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again”. That isn’t who America is. It isn’t who any civilized society is. Don is just a craven politician, not a deity. Escape the grip.
Obviously, you didn't read what I wrote but I am used to that. Oren does attract leftists which I normally approve of since I think populist fusion is the only way to hold the place together. But when he strays into foreign policy, he attracts people afflicted with TDS.
No leftist here, I'm a lifelong conservative, still, but a former Republican since Don appeared. But, you need new material Richard, MAGA religiously resorts to the lame claim of TDS when all rational arguments have failed. The funny thing is, merely repeating Don's actual statements, or recounting his actions, makes one sound deranged. Sadly, it's real. Speaking of deranged, I often wonder if his ever faithful flock actually reads his daily bleats, or listens to his full public statements?
It's so telling, and predictable, that Don's followers have dutifully morphed into neocons as they embrace MAGA's Middle East war, eschewing another of their supposed core beliefs. It shows again that the movement isn't about issues. I just love that:).
If Don ever settles on a rationale for MAGA's war, I hope it's one that you can easily adopt as your own.
On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog.
Sometimes we do. Read Don's daily bleats in their entirety. They're far more deranged and vile than what you'll find on these pages. Ironically, JD has uttered the most scathing assessments of Don, far more strident than what you'll read here. I agree with JD, even though he drips with TDS.
I'd be ok with JD starting early.
I am do, but short of resignation, this won't happen.
Democrats are already making impeachment noises for next year. They'll do it, unless they have the votes for conviction. If the GOP were to turn on Trump, the Dems would suddenly fall silent since they can't give Vance 22 months of Trump's term and still let him run for 2 more on his own.
A poisoned chalice. Civil war on the Right will do nothing to make the Democrats sane. It will probably make them more extreme.
No civil war, just a natural succession. Democrats are out of the picture for now, stuck in the last millenium.
MAGA base will never forgive anyone associated with a coup. And Democrats are favored to win this year's election and they will be extremists.
Trump turns 80 in July, polymarket gives 17% that he won't complete this year. There are many possibilities that don't include disharmony amongst the Rs.
Possible but I am sure you are aware of the 25A buzz . Oren doesn't quite go there but others on the Right do.
25A never happen. Vance wouldn't go along unless a stroke or similar. I don't pay much attention to the right so maybe I'm missing something. Neocons got their war, why would they be pissed. CT types can Epstein forever. Not sure why any Rs would want Trump gone. I thought 25A buzz was from the left. I follow left crazies even less.
Good for Oren for poking his head outta the foxhole again. I welcome him to the cause. I suspect his main motivation remains an attempt to help his bud JD flee from Don and assume yet another political ideology. I'll still take it.
Oren joins other paragons of the "new" right in denouncing Don. Tucker, Candace, Nick, MTG, Alex, Megyn...some even calling for pursuing the 25th amendment. I welcome them to the cause as well.
I had thought fomenting an insurrection coupled with the big lie was evidence enough of Don's unfitness for office, but, again, I'll still take it.
Let's celebrate the green shoots on this spring Friday. Elites on the right have taken a few baby steps towards stating the obvious. Maybe there's hope for my former party after all?
Good luck America.
Beautifully said. There must be sane intelligent people in the Republican party who are finally realising that cowardly genuflecting to a derranged bully is not a path to long term success in fixing the liberal establishment's errors.
Really enjoy Oren, but wish he would defer from using popular culture references, like "the long shadow of Chris Webber’s ill-advised timeout". Per an AI query to estimate the % of adults who would understand this reference, I got:
Estimate (rough, assumption-based):
Assumptions: awareness concentrated among U.S. adults who follow college basketball, aged ~35–65 (were old enough in 1993 to remember it), plus sports fans who learned about it later.
Reasonable guess: ~15–25% of American adults would recognize the reference.
As a share of the overall news-media-consuming population (people who follow news/consume media): roughly the same, ~15–25%.
Uncertainty: ±10 percentage points depending on age skew, sports interest, and cultural memory.
Writers should not encumber the majority of their readers for cute one liners that they don't get. I'm not saying it isn't cute, but stuff like this really disrupts a smooth reading of an otherwise good article. I am not reading Oren for cute. Thanks for listening.
When they say “Death to America” we hear it. Trump was talking to them in their terms. Sort of like shoving a dogs nose into its own shit.